Monday, November 3, 2008

something I don't understand...Christians, help me out here!

This is just one small part of a very active, should we say, election. HOWEVER. I wonder how those of us who call ourselves Christians think its okay to discriminate against those Americans (just like us) who, through no choice of their own, want to be with someone of the same gender. And, before we begin, if you are one of those people, try in no way to convince me that you are *not* discriminating. Because you are.

How, as a Christian, do you think you have the right to tell a man he is not allowed to marry another man? Or a woman, marry another woman?

How, as a Christian (or non-Christian), does it affect you? At all?

I just cannot fathom why someone would think there's any reason God would not support gay or lesbian men and women. God-my God, your God-is the very same God that loves and supports every single man or woman on this Earth. I don't understand why ANY person would have an issue with gay marriage, but I especially do not understand why any Christian person would have an issue with gay marriage. As a Christian woman, and maybe this is where I differ from you, but as a Christian woman, I do not judge. I do not discriminate. I do not think I am better than anyone else. I do not think I have the right to take away rights from others who are just like me.

How, as a Christian, can you not love and support every man or woman just as your God loves and supports every man or woman?

And please please do not use the Bible as a source of God's unwavering love (except to those who are gay or lesbian). First of all, the Bible NEVER says gay marriage is wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Bible *not* take a stance on gay marriage?? You might be interested to find that Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior and only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.

But furthermore--would it not be outdated by now? I'll play devil's advocate. Hypothetically speaking, lets say the Bible does, in fact, state that gay marriage is wrong. Because your argument would be "the Bible says so", wouldn't we have to, in comparison, apply that theory to everything in the Bible? Go with me on this. If gay marriage is wrong because the Bible says so, wouldn't that mean teenagers who rebel against their parents should be put to death? I mean...the Bible DOES say so...and that's one thing I'm sure of. So, going along with this theory, almost every teenager, at one point in time, should be sentenced to the death penalty for disobeying their parents. Because the Bible says so.

The bottom line is there are many many many many many things that the Bible says that we no longer do. Keep that in mind.

So a Christian, do you think if Jesus was standing before you, he would applaud you for taking away something so amazingly wonderful as marriage from another one of his children? One who did nothing wrong but fall in love? Or do you think he would prefer you to love and cherish and support all of his children??

And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” Genesis 2:18


Michelle Albertson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
colesGodmommy said...

First and foremost, a gay man or lesbian woman DOES NOT choose that lifestyle. If given the choice, do you truly believe that they would CHOOSE a life of ridicule? Of rude comments? Of ignorant people making jokes of them? I think not. Do you know any gay or lesbian people? And by *know*, I don't mean have you come in contact with them. I mean do you TRULY know them. Are you friends with them. Because if so, you would know that NONE of them CHOSE that lifestyle.

So, by your theory then, should we go ahead and just kill off all the teenagers that rebel against their parents? Or prostitutes? Because THAT is also in the if you are going to sit there and say that we have to take THIS particular part of the Bible as accurate still today, then you must take ALL of the Bible literally. You can't pick and choose.

Personally, how does gay marriage affect you? I mean honestly, do you have a real answer to that? Because it doesn't. It doesn't affect you at doesn't take away from what you and Ethan have. So why does it matter to you if two men or two women were to get married?? I just truly do not understand how a Christian, who should be accepting of EVERYONE, can sit there and really believe that gay marriage affects them.

And I want to ask you: what would you do if you had a child that was gay or lesbian? What if a brother or a sister was gay? What if you were raised by two gay parents? If your child turned out to be gay (distinction: did not MAKE that choice, but was BORN that way) would you really deny them the opportunity of a marriage? Could you honestly look them in the eye and say "sorry sweetie...mommy and daddy 'deserve' to be married because they didn't CHOOSE to do something so heinous as be *gasp* gay...but no, you don't get that right." I cannot FATHOM judging someone like that.

Maybe we have a different God and maybe we have a different view of being Christian but as a Christian, MY God tells me to judge NO one no matter what their sexual preference, skin color, or religion.

Michelle Albertson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
The Straka's said...

To "get into Heaven" need to believe in Him, Jesus Christ our SAVIOR. That is all.

colesGodmommy said...

You never answered my question. Have you ever ASKED a gay or lesbian person if they chose that lifestyle?? I'm gonna make an educated guess and say no. One of my best friends is gay. I have numerous friends who are gay. Did any of them CHOOSE that lifestyle?? NO THEY DID NOT. I sincerely hope you look at what you're saying. Have a conversation with a gay person. You are very clearly uneducated on whether gay or lesbian men and women choose their lifestyle. You're not gay. And you clearly have never asked a gay person if they chose their lifestyle. Therefore you are not qualified to comment on it. You saying that gay people choose to be gay is like saying African Americans chose to become slaves. And don't pretend like it's not the same thing because it's entirely the same train of thought.

Next, I ask: did you consciously make the choice to be straight? Did you look at boys and girls when you were younger and say "oh i really think I'm just going to be attracted to the boys and not to the girls." No, that's not how it works. You were BORN straight. You never had to make a choice. And if you never had to make a choice, then why would the "gay kids"?

I didn't ask why it 'mattered' to you. I asked how it AFFECTED you. And I think the reason you didn't answer is because it doesn't. Whether your next door neighbor marries a man or a woman affects you in no way, shape, or form.

and in response to this: "The Bible doesn't say that we need to kill people who disobey their parents, it says "honor your father and mother." YES, the Bible does specifically say that rebellious teenagers should suffer the death penalty. It says the same thing about prostitutes. I've written over 10 papers on the death penalty and this is one of my main points. The Bible DOES say that. So, again, you can't pick and choose. Either you believe everything the Bible says or you don't.

I don't mean to be so heated about this topic but I have a hard time looking at any of my gay friends and saying "sorry, you're gay, you can't get married. but i can." I love my friends too much to ever think that I am above that in any capacity.

Michelle Albertson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
colesGodmommy said...

The connection is just have to open your eyes enough to see it. The bottom line Michelle is that you're not gay. So you have NO idea whether gay people choose to be gay or not. And the part that completely baffles me is that you're not willing to admit that. We should all be able to agree that UNLESS YOU ARE GAY, you have NO idea whether that lifestyle is chosen or not. Whether you agree with gay marriage or not, that is something that can't be debated. And you aren't gay so you really don't know.

Tell me how two men or two women marrying takes away from the sanctity of YOUR marriage. The only way it would take anything away is if you LET it and that is reaching. In fact, I would think teenagers being forced to marry because of a baby or arranged marriages would take away from the sanctity of YOUR marriage before gay marriage would because, let's be honest, at least the gay men and women are making the CHOICE to be married instead of being forced into it. I would rather have my marriage upheld by people choosing to make the commitment but what do I know, right? I'm not married...

As for the video, I have to find it humorous that you are resorting to a video of a woman you DON'T KNOW to prove your point. You do realize that the majority of those types of videos are fake and/or made as a joke correct? Until you actually meet someone and can tell me they made a choice, that video won't change a thing.

Oh, and as for the Bible passages:

Exodus 21:15 “And he who strikes his father or his mother shall surely be put to death."

Exodus 21:17 “And he who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death."

Leviticus 20:9 ‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death."

Leviticus 24:16 "And whoever blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death."

Does that about cover it??

Ina said...

If God created people to be gay and straight, why would he call being gay a sin?

Ever read the book "Living Biblically" by A. J. Jacobs? The author went for a year following every single rule in the bible - as literally as possible. And his main question was how do you live by these rules in this day and age?
Do we still stone adulterers (Leviticus 20:10)? No.
Are we all allowed to wear eye-glasses(Leviticus 21:20)? Yes
Do we still possess slaves (Leviticus 25:44)? No.
So how can we follow the rules we want to (like say, calling Homosexuals an abomination) without following all of them?

Please remember that the bible we're reading today has been translated so many times that you simply can't take it word for word anymore. It's the message that counts, not the exact wording of that message.

Does what your neighbor do really affect your life? Are they hurting you in some way by being together? NO!

The last question I ask you, is what about those that are bisexual? They count as homosexual too, but if a bisexual woman chooses to be with a man for the rest of her life... is she safe from being called an abomination?

The Straka's said...

Being a married woman I can tell you....someone elses relationship IN NO WAY says ANYTHING about the relationship I have with my husband. Greg and I made vows to our God. That was between God, Greg, and myself. NO ONE else. Maybe it's because my husband and I RESPECT everyone and THEIR OWN decisions. But a woman marrying a woman (or vice versa) has NO BARING WHATSOEVER on MY marriage. For you to say that, is ridiculous. You're a sweet girl Michelle, and I'm sure you have a WONDERFUL marriage. But, your marriage is in NO way affected by the actions of others. That would be like me saying, "I got fired today because I was stealing and that affects your marriage because the Bible says not too."

A Christian is a person who respects, honors, glorifies, supports, and LOVES everybody NO MATTER what they are going through in life. To join in the glories of God in Heaven, you need to be a BELIEVER of God our Father. And a Christian. Living your life the way God would live. Jesus would definitely not approve of NOT supporting those "outcasts". I could quote over and over the Bible verses where God seeks out those "outcasts" and loves them because that is what we are CALLED to do.

Furthermore, I have LOTS of friends that are gay or lesbian. To listen to their stories of being teased, spit on, pushed, bullied, etc etc etc...and to think YOU think they CHOSE that?!? You have GOT to be kidding me!!! That is extremely unfair. Until you walk a mile in someones shoes, you have NO right to bare judgment!!!

I'm sorry, I barely know you. I do think you are a sweet girl. But you are very narrow minded and you have a lot to learn before Keagan grows up. He will be exposed to BIG issues like this and being narrow minded is just going to break your relationship apart. All I'm asking is that you pray for some knowledge from God. Pray for some experience in this matter before you go around passing judgment.

The Straka's said...

Oh, I should mention....When you said your vows. You said them to Ethan, looked down on by God. All the GAYS and LESBIANS out there weren't saying them with you. You said them to Ethan, he repeated. Meaning, your wedding was between YOU and ETHAN, the way it should be. Someone else's actions do not make YOUR vows to each other "invalid", "unimportant", "meaningless" long as you meant what you promised to your husband, that's ALL that matters.

Michelle Albertson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Christie, Jeff and Kennedy said...

Just another point...the verses in Leviticus everyone likes to point to about a man laying with a man? NOTHING to do with homosexuality. It only was written because they were to increase the population and two men having sex together couldn't produce a pregnancy. (and this is coming from a class that was on texts of the Old Testament)

Also, any translation that uses the word homosexuality took liberties in it's translation. There is no word for homosexuality in Latin.
This is also not to mention that all of the "Christians" I've met who use Leviticus like to claim the laws of the Old Testament died on the cross with Jesus. However, apparently that law still applies. Go figure that one out.

I basically look at it this way. Most homophobes (and yes, I believe all people who refuse to allow gay marriage are homophobes) want JUSTIFICATION for feeling that way, and they feel the Bible can be their scapegoat. (now, cue person who says "But I don't hate gays, my BFF is gay....")

Christie, Jeff and Kennedy said...

ok, and now to respond to comments. YAY! I love this. (Mels...did you warn your friends about me???)

1. The "sanctity" of marriage is a BULL SHIT argument. Absolute and utter BULL SHIT. Whether my married neighbors are homo or hetero sexual does not in ANY way affect my marriage to Jeff. If it did, I'd be questioning his sexual orientation. Heaven forbid the sanctity of Britney's 55 hour Vegas wedding be trashed by some gays....the HORROR! If you want to get down to the Biblical reasons for marriage fine. Do so. But then deny marriage rights to the elderly, the infertile, the couple that just doesn't want kids. Because marriage is for producing a family.

2. Choosing to be gay is like choosing to be black in the 1960's. The treatment of gays in the 80's and 90's especially very much echoed the treatment of black people in their time.

3. If being gay is not natural, why is it found in ALL areas of animal being? There have been gay pandas, penguins, apes, and the list goes on...

4. FWIW, the majority of same sex relationships last LONGER than hetero marriages.

Oh, and before I forget to mention. Gay marriage TOTALLY killed the dinosaurs.

Oh, and stay out of Massachusetts. I hear the gay is very contagious.

The Straka's said...

It's not fun to be JUDGED is it???

And you ARE being heard, just not understood. You are not making your point clear.

colesGodmommy said...

The best part of this whole thing is that the fact that you unfriended me and blocked me from your blog Michelle. Real classy. This discussion has (edit* HAD) nothing to do with what type of person you are and it was in no way changing the way I thought about you. I still thought you were a very nice person; we just disagreed about something. That's the joy of America, WE ARE ALLOWED TO DISAGREE. I respect your opinion. I don't agree with it but, being an American AND a Christian, I know you are entitled to your opinion. I don't think you feel the same way. This much was proven when you decided to "unfriend" me as though we are still 12 years old. I think that shows what kind of person I am compared to you. If someone doesn't agree with you, then you can no longer be friends with them? Pretty classy. God would be proud.

The Straka's said...

Michelle, I hate to say it again, but I agree with Melanie.

My post wasn't supposed to sound like I was attacking you. I was merely trying to get down to the point of what you were getting at. Living in America, we are all entitled to our opinion...some get more opinionated around election time.

It's fine if you want to keep me blocked, I barely know you. It's unfortunate that two friends cannot debate issues without a friend turning her back on another one. I think you need to reconsider turning you back on Melanie. She is a great friend, who just happens to have a different opinion then you. There's nothing wrong with that.

When you post opinions that differ on someone's blog, you need to be prepare to put up a fight. Not argue and then turn your back the next day. You started the debate, let's finish it politely and go back to the way it was.

Anonymous said...

This whole post and comments don't sound like a debate but rather an attack on Bible believing Christians.

Anonymous said...

When is telling someone they are not a Christian a "polite" debate. The funny thing about this debate is that you actually think you know what you are talking about. The problem is that you are too ignorant to even see where your views and ideas are completely flawed. In order to be a Christian, your views have to be Christ-centered. I think we can both agree that yours are not since they are not based on the only true infallible Word of God. If you do not believe that last statement, then there is no way you are a Christian. We can even use scripture to prove a point and you just ignore it or use the token "the book was written thousands of years ago and doesn't apply in this situation" like every other liberal. You actually sound a lot like atheists whom I've debated with. There are two problems with your view and application of the Bible. You are completely involved in Theological Liberalism, which is taking passages of the Bible and making them say what you want them to say. The funniest part is that your passages are pretty much made up para-phrasings of things you've heard from other ignorant individuals (probably homos). And Moral Relativism, which I will spell out for you since I'm sure you don't know what it means. Moral Relativism is the belief that sin is only sin if I agree that it is sin. Homosexuality is a sin in the Bible yet you choose to disregard. That is some pretty strong faith you have if you don't even believe in the things the Bible teaches. You are completely crazy to think that people are not Christians if they do not endorse homosexuality. Jesus did not endorse homosexuality and he never will, so why do you push this? I don't agree with drunkenness, why don't we debate about that as well since I'm sure you have a strong stance on that as well.
Homosexuality is not a gene, it is not proven, and it never will be proven. And if you think that your homosexual friends telling us that it was their choice is going to "win" us over to the gay side, you are more ignorant than I thought. Empirical research has no strength here. This is childish to believe anyway. It is your friend's word against anyone else, and you are only praying that the public starts to believe the lies. The only reason why you are even passionate about the topic is because you have friends who are in that lifestyle, but just because it affects you on that personal level does not make it justifiable. Homosexuals are only pushing this on society so that their actions can be found acceptable if they can get more people to agree with it. But there is only one person who ultimately made the decision and that has been set forth in the Bible.
Homosexuality is a sin, just like drunkenness and taking God's name in vain. You should realize that the numerous scriptures and evidence that the homosexual acts they were referring to in the Bible is the very same as today. Sodom was DESTROYED partly because of their homosexual behaviors. But to say that someone isn't a Christian if they don't fully endorse the homosexual agenda because you have gay friends and she should accept them for their sinful lifestyles, that one takes the cake for judgement. You have a belief and so do we, who are you to say that someone is or isn't a Christian. That is God's choice. We are saying that homosexuality is a detestable sin because it clearly states it in the Bible in the account of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 and in Ezekiel 16:47. Romans 1:27 "Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." If you are going to call yourself a Christian, you have to live your life like Christ (Christian means little Christ) which means adhering to the law that God has set forth in the Bible. Faith and belief in God is the only way to heaven, but even satan believes in God, you have to believe and follow God. James 2:18, "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even demons believe that - and shudder." This "faith" does not leave room for homosexuality. James 1:22, "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

You don't even know what the Bible says. You make up verses here and there to supposedly prove your point. You can go ahead and agree with homosexuality if you want, but it is plainly stated in Revelations 3:16 "I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm - neither hot nor cold- I am about to spit you out of my mouth." This is not me judging you, this is God's word…..hurts doesn't it?

And let me guess, you believe in evolution as well. You need to find a new church then. Or a new religion because this one just isn't working for your worldview. Oh you don't know what a worldview is? How surprising. I know you better than you think.

The Straka's said...

I'm not attacking myself and I'm a bible believing Christian....I just don't take it so literally.

colesGodmommy said...

"Anonymous" huh? Not man enough to even leave a name, Ethan? Or are you another one of Michelle's friends? Because let's be honest...someone has to fight her fight now that she's given up... No doubt this was exactly what you judged me for, no? Taking a stand for a friend? Why don't you grow a pair and stand up for what you believe in instead of just leaving an anonymous comment??

Correct me if I'm wrong but no one here EVER said anything about someone not being a Christian because they didn't agree with homosexuality. Was there debate? Absolutely. Are there people who have strong opinions? You got it. Is this America and is that allowed? Hell yeah. Oh wait, I said hell...I guess that means I'm going there now too. See you there?

The bottom line is you claim I'm not a Christian because I DO support gay marriage. How very Christian of you. I never once claimed you, your significant other, or anyone you know was NOT a Christian because they disagreed with me. Disagreements happen. That's part of life. If you can't handle it, then maybe you should get out. Oh yeah, and I still welcome you to attach your testicles and leave a name next time. I'm pretty sure if you think God considers homosexuality a sin, then he would most certainly consider transgender (i.e. you and your unattached genitals) as a sin as well...

The difference between the people I associate myself with and you (outside of this post--which is a response to your ignorant and disrespectful ass) is that we respect everyone and their opinion. No one attacked Michelle. This is an issue that obviously gets heated and if you can't handle that type of discussion then maybe you shouldn't have started it in the first place. This is MY blog, that means I state MY opinions. No one forced Michelle to respond. And if she felt like she had to, then she should grow up and act like an adult. I would much rather associate myself with the people I have--open minded, respectful, and wonderful people--versus someone like you.

Let's leave it at this. I'll love my God and you can love yours. I'll support my gay friends and family and when your child ends up gay, I'll support them as well. But you won't. And guess what? God will forgive you. But maybe they won't.

colesGodmommy said...

Too scared of what people will think of you to keep your comments on here Michelle? Two words: GROW UP. If you're that ashamed of what you said, maybe you shouldn't have said it to begin with...just food for thought.

Christie, Jeff and Kennedy said...

FWIW, ALL of my views on the Bible come from being a Religion major at one point in time, and come from texts from BIBLICAL SCHOLARS.
Not some random ASSHAT who lacks the cajones to even attach a name to their comments. Come back when you've grown a pair.
Melanie's post was simply based on JUDGING others as a Christian. Something that IS forbidden in the Bible as well. The fact that Michelle tried, very unsuccessfully, to turn this into a
"I'm a better Christian than you" debate doesn't change that fact. Although I have heard that reading comprehension is not a valued skill in American education anymore.

Now, Mr. I need to grow a pair, answer me a few questions, since you seem to believe people are picking and choosing the laws in which they abide.
1. Do you burn sacrifices to honor your God?
2. Have you (or will you) sell your daughter into slavery?
3. Do you refrain from touching your wife (and this refers to even something as simple as hug) during her period?
4. Do you own slaves?
5. Do you work on Saturdays? (the day that is the TRUE Sabbath) And by work, this is not referring to just at a job.
6. Do you eat crab, lobster, shrimp?
7. Do you wear glasses or contact lenses? If you don't need them, would you wear them if you did?
8. Do you get your hair cut? Or cut it yourself? Do you shave?
9. Are ALL of your clothes 100% cotton, silk, or whatever fiber you happen to be wearing?
10. Do you leave your village/town/city to take a shit?
11. Is your wife your property?
12. Do you (or will you) beat your child with a rod?
13. Will you stone your child to death when he disobeys you?
14. Do you kill those who disagree with your religious beliefs?

Because, honestly, if you want to look at Biblical law, those are only some of what is there. I certainly hope you are fully abiding God's law at all times, Mr. Super Christian.

As for your views on being gay being a choice, I've picked up in your little diatribe that logic and accepting facts are not exactly your strong suit, so it's not really worth my time to convince you otherwise. However, if homosexuality is a choice, please explain to me how animals who lack the cognitive ability to make these decisions, can also be gay. I await your explanation, although I know it will not come.
And how anyone can honestly ignore the evidence of evolution is beyond me. It's beyond naivete and ignorance. I do believe in intelligent design, but I am not ignorant enough to believe that evolution has not happened on any level, ever.
To take the Bible literally, word for word, is something I can not and will not ever understand. NEWS FLASH: The Bible was written by MEN, after years of being passed down through stories and then translated into hundreds of different languages and multiple different versions in each language. Ever play the "telephone" game?
If you get down to the original language the Bible was written in, you would find a lot of what you think of the Bible is not quite what it seems. There are many words and phrases used in modern language that do not exist in Ancient Greek and Latin. Homosexuality is only one of those.
Again, you may think you know all. But you don't. The information stated above comes from HOURS of research and reading as a Religion major....
And I will repeat this because it deserves repeating. Either grow a pair or pack up your toys and leave. People like you make me sad for my daughter's generation. Ignorance breeds ignorance and hatred breeds hatred. Hopefully your children will learn to love others the way God truly intended.

The Straka's said...

AMEN sister friend!!!!